America Online APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG Tuesday, September 4, 1990 10:00 p.m. Eastern Time Topic: Operating Systems Forum Leader: Dave Sugar (AFL Dyfet) AFA Gary J Ok. Let's get started here. AFA Gary J Welcome to the Apple II Development Forum. Tonight's topic is Operating AFA Gary J Systems. I'm Gary Jacobson, the Forum Assistant. Dave Sugar will be here AFA Gary J in a moment. Let's use forum PROTOCOL!!!! starting NOW!! AFA Gary J So if you have a question, type a "?" on a line by itself. AFA Gary J Or, if you have a comment on the curren topic, type a "!" on a line by itself. AFA Gary J Does anyone have a question they'd like to start out with this evening? Matt DTS [Lots of new faces here tonight! GA] AFA Gary J Yes, Joyce! GA AFL JoyceM I understand that the new Prodos-8 (1.9) cannot be used with ProSel-16 and AFL JoyceM GSOS 5.02, is that correct? AFA Gary J It's true of 5.02, but not sure about ProSel. AFA Gary J GA, Jeffrey JeffreyH11 I'll wait for Matt. GA AFL JoyceM I was mistaken in stating Prosel , just 5.02 :) AFL JoyceM Done Matt DTS Yes, it's true. Hidden Secret: You don't really care. Matt DTS Why not? Because the only changes between 1.8 and 1.9 affect booting P8 directly or quitting from it Matt DTS where GS/OS is not involved. Since GS/OS takes care of both these things for you, none of the changes Matt DTS have any affect on GS/OS users of P8. GA. AFL JoyceM Thanks, Matt. JeffreyH11 As far as I have read, GS/OS check version numbers of files like P8, and will JeffreyH11 refuse to use any that don't have the right version number. JeffreyH11 GA AFA Gary J Ok, Sexteen GS has the next question. GA Sexteen GS Two questions. If GSOS 3.03 is only to be SCSI DMA compatible, Sexteen GS then why does it help w/ the unclaimed interrupts? AFA Gary J GA Matt Sexteen GS Also, what exactly is the cause of that problem, Sexteen GS and how can it be fixed? Matt DTS GS/OS 3.3 hasn't been released. The version with the DMA SCSI card is 3.2 (or 3.02, depending on how Matt DTS you print the value returned by GetVersion, which is $0302). Matt DTS It helps with the unclaimed interrupts (3.2, that is) because it no longer treats greater than 64K Matt DTS unclaimed interrupts as a fatal error. It gives you the same warning, but pressing gets you to Matt DTS right where you left off. For more details, see GS/OS TN #9 (or #10, somewhere around there). GA. AFA Gary J Anything else, Sexteen? Sexteen GS No, thanks. AFA Gary J Ok. GA Scott. Ez Scott B The old ProDOS 8 locates itself auto. at $9A00.... Ez Scott B I need to know the locations in the bank for game design purposes.... Ez Scott B Where does the new one locate on an Apple IIe? Ez Scott B GA. AFA Gary J GA Jeffrey JeffreyH11 Actually, BASIC.SYSTEM loads at $9A00 (or near there), the ProDOS MLI moves JeffreyH11 itself to underneath ROM, and occupies only page $BF and some ZP and Page 3 JeffreyH11 locations. If you're not using BASIC.SYSTEM, most of main memory is yours. GA AFA Gary J Ok. Looks like Joyce has the next question. GA Joyce. AFL JoyceM Is there a patch for PD 1.9 for the No Slot Clock, or should I ask in Hardware? AFA Gary J Joyce. There's one in our library right now that someone has uploaded, AFA Gary J and I have yet to release it. (I just downloaded it before the chat). AFA Gary J As soon as I check it out, It'll be released. AFA Gary J GA, Matt AFL JoyceM Okay, Gary....anxiously awaiting :) Done Matt DTS (This is where I perpetually point out that if people would make these .SYSTEM files instead of Matt DTS patching hard addresses, you wouldn't need to change them every time P8 changed. I know people Matt DTS still stuck using P8 1.4 because they can't get more recent versions of their patches.) GA. AFA Gary J GA Jeffrey JeffreyH11 It would be nice if P8 had something corresponding to INITs, but I don't think JeffreyH11 there is enough memory left over to implement it. GA AFA Gary J Trouble with that is that there's no consistant place for it to reside in AFA Gary J memory. AFA Gary J GA Matt. Matt DTS There's no reason someone can't write a .SYSTEM program that looks in an INITs folder and executes them all Matt DTS according to a pre-arranged setup. In fact, Dave Lyons' P8CDA Matt DTS program does this for IIgs inits under ProDOS 8. No reason why there can't be a strictly 8-bit analog Matt DTS as well. Matt DTS GA AFA Gary J Thanks Matt. AFA Gary J Ok. A2GS has the next question. GA A2 A2GS This is off the topic, I hope no one will mind.... A2GS I'm looking for a FAST 16-bit multiply routine...something producing a 32-bit A2GS result faster then the current routine I have, which produces a result within A2GS the range of 420-520 cycles....any suggestions? GA Mac Hater have a 4194304k lookup table. AFL Dyfet I take it, A2, that you are using the shift AFL Dyfet and add method? A2GS A derivative of it A2GS Sorry Mac...that just won't do... A2GS at least not until Apple starts shipping machine with 4 gigs of memory and we A2GS get a processor which can address that much :) Dave Lyons (It'd be 16 megs anyway, not 4....) Dave Lyons (Oh, never mind. I'm wrong.) A2GS whatever... dave :) AFL Dyfet A2, all we need is a hw multiply instruction :) A2GS Fine by me.... A2GS anyone spoken to Sculley lately? AFA Gary J What, about hw multiply? :) Matt DTS Like Sculley knows about hardware multiplication implementations. JeffreyH11 :) AFL JoyceM :) A2GS Nope...but he can authorize the implementation of a 68882 in every machine...I A2GS guess. Psycosis Nope, no one's spoken to him... he's been locked in his office with his Psycosis Turbo Genesis since July ;) AFA Gary J Ok. Let's move on to HaveGSPLUS's question. GA HaveGSPLUS HaveGSPLUS I'm having a problem with the LaserWriter print driver. I do not have a HaveGSPLUS LaserWriter, but my mother has one at work, so I wanted to print the document HaveGSPLUS to a file. I placed the files "LaserWriter", "LW.PSetup" (or something like HaveGSPLUS that), and "IWEM" in the drivers directory, but the DirectConnect CDev won't HaveGSPLUS show the LaserWriter driver. AFA Gary J GA, Matt HaveGSPLUS Anybody know what's wrong? Matt DTS 1) USE THE INSTALLER! Don't go "placing" files places. For example, you won't need LW.PSetup. See Matt DTS GS/OS TN #1 for details on LW.PSetup. Matt DTS 2) DirectConnect ignores a printer driver named "LaserWriter" because we (Apple) don't guarantee that Matt DTS it will work directly connected (read: it probably will but we didn't test it). Rename the printer Matt DTS driver and DirectConnect will find it. HaveGSPLUS Well...I looked at the installer script, but it seems to install a bunch of HaveGSPLUS files which begin with "AT" so I assumed it was for AppleTalk LW installation? Matt DTS It installs AppleTalk protocols you'd need to connect to a LaserWriter. You can also use the Matt DTS Installer when you're done to "remove" the files and reinstall the printer you normally print to. Matt DTS GA. HaveGSPLUS I'm not too familiar with AppleTalk, but do I need any additional cables, HaveGSPLUS because I don't even have the printer, I wanted to use the OA-F function I HaveGSPLUS saw someone write about. Matt DTS You don't need additional cables to not have AppleTalk. :) GA. HaveGSPLUS So just installing the files will work? Matt DTS (you also have to rename the printer driver. See above text.) Psycosis Ok! I've been having these problems with some files in a particular folder: Psycosis when I try to move or, in particular, delete them, I get a message saying, Psycosis "Can't complete this system operation: System error 8051" Psycosis Also, what happens when sometimes I try to throw these stinky files out in Psycosis the trash, my screen turns a billion colors and I need to reboot. AFA Gary J GA, Matt. Matt DTS The ProDOS FST thinks your directory structure is damaged. Try running a volume repair utility. Matt DTS GA. Psycosis Umm.... Psycosis ::sheepish grin:: Psycosis Like what? AFA Gary J GA, Jeffrey Matt DTS ProSEL 8 or 16's volume repair is usually a good choice. GA> JeffreyH11 Not really a question (that comes later), but are there any volume repair JeffreyH11 utilities that will recognize extended files (other than ProSEL 16)?? AFA Gary J ProSEL 16 is the only one I'm familiar with. AFA Gary J Anyone else know? AFA Gary J GA, Marty AFL Marty I believe Vitesse makes one. Not sure though. AFL Marty ga AFA Gary J I think you're right, Marty, but not sure either :) AFA Gary J Anything else, Rob? Psycosis Nah... thanks ;) AFA Gary J Ok. Jeffrey has the next question. GA JeffreyH11 I recently installed AppleShare on my machine, and have had no problem with it JeffreyH11 in the 16-bit environment (GS/OS 3.02), but when I mount a file server, and JeffreyH11 then go to ProDOS 8, it only half recognizes it. P8 seems to realize there's JeffreyH11 a device there, and even returns the volume name, but it won't recognize the JeffreyH11 volume name when I refer to it. AFA Gary J GA Matt Matt DTS What's the volume name? JeffreyH11 "Chem God". P8 returns it as "/chem.god". Specifically, in Davex, when I JeffreyH11 refer to the volume as .71, it comes back and tells me it's never heard of JeffreyH11 /chem.god JeffreyH11 GA Matt DTS Uh-uh. P8 does *not* return dots where spaces are found. JeffreyH11 Thats what was on my screen. What happens if it finds a space? Matt DTS You have to set the naming to long before you can access volumes with illegal P8 names, and even Matt DTS then you can't access longer than 15 character names. JeffreyH11 How do I do this? Matt DTS If the name is "Chem God", Davex will return it as "/chem god". Matt DTS You can set the naming through PFI commands, as detailed in the AppleShare Programmer's Guide. Matt DTS It's a lot easier to rename the server, most of the time. :) Matt DTS GA JeffreyH11 Which I can't find and probably can't afford. Can you tell me where I can find JeffreyH11 code that will do it? I can't rename every server on campus so that it has a JeffreyH11 valid P8 name. Matt DTS I think Dave has a sample he can send you. You two can talk about it privately. GA. JeffreyH11 Dave - is there any way to get davex to do this? Matt DTS Note that even with long naming you still can't use P8 to access files or directories with names Matt DTS longer than 15 characters. Sorry, but doing otherwise would overflow app's P8 data structures. Matt DTS GA - really! :) Dave Lyons Whoops-- AFA Gary J (I was wondering why Matt is answering Davex questions :) Dave Lyons wasn't reading the chat closely. Yeah, like I just flahsed you, I have a prototype command that Dave Lyons will turn long naming on. JeffreyH11 OK. Thanks. Dave Lyons (Because Matt *likes* Davex & thinks it's the best thing since sliced ROM.) AFA Gary J :) AFA Gary J I thought so. Matt DTS Davex is better than, for example, nothing. :) AFA Gary J LOL! AFA Gary J Ok, does anyone else have any burning OS questions this evening? AFA Gary J GA, Johnny JohnnyRed Do you know if anybody has come out with drivers to access the NetModem or NetSerial from Shiva? JohnnyRed GA AFA Gary J No idea, JohnnyRed. AFA Gary J Anyone else? AFA Gary J Guess not. Ok. Seaspider - .... Seaspider I am kind of late but I was wondering if there was any discussion on the new Seaspider 6.0 system? AFA Gary J No. (no discussion on 6.0) AFA Gary J :) Seaspider Last week on the Victory Software chat they mentioned that 6.0 was coming Seaspider out today..........beta version Matt DTS And they got you, too. Good. AFA Gary J Perhaps it is, but if it's beta, then it's not available for general discussion AFA Gary J yet. AFA Gary J At least not from Apple's point of view. Dave Lyons (What did they *really* say, and how much are you reading into what they said?) AFA Gary J (those who don't know can speculate all they want) Seaspider thank you AFA Gary J GA, Jeffrey JeffreyH11 Since when do we take Apple's point of view?? :) JeffreyH11 GA AFA Gary J :) Dave Lyons <-- since 4/17/89 :-) Matt DTS <-- since 3/14/88 A2GS <-- since 1/15/87 A2GS that's when I got my GS :) A2GS Wow Dave, you got your GS pretty recently :) AFA Gary J Ok, A2. You have the next question. GA A2GS This is COMPLETELY off the subject (what else is new), but does anyone happen A2GS to know Approx. how much AppleCare cost for JUST my GS (the box)? A2GS GA AFA Gary J Hmmmm. I don't know exactly, but I think it's right around $90. A2GS Thanx AFA Gary J (does that sound right?) A2GS Yup, around there AFA Gary J Ok, Reff. You're up now. GA Reff I have been having such strange problems with my GS I don't know how to decribe Reff it but here goes Reff I have a hard drive that keeps changing filenames and directory names Reff The volume name even disapears sometimes. AFA Gary J Disappear? Using what program, Finder? Reff Using any program the names just change AFA Gary J GA, Scott Ez Scott B What SCSI board/interface are you using....check compatability Ez Scott B GA Reff I can't access the drive any longer until I format and restorew Reff I am using the second Ramfast AFA Gary J Very strange. It may very likely have something to do with your Ramfast. AFA Gary J I've never seen anything like that happen before. AFA Gary J Reff: You might try posting your question in one of the topic boards and AFA Gary J see if someone else has encountered that problem. Reff I thought it might be the Ramfast also and he sent me another one and it does Reff the same thing Ez Scott B hmmm.,.... AFA Gary J It may have something to do with your system configuration. I'm not familiar AFA Gary J with RamFast problems. TerryF Cox Check your connections. I had a Sider 40 do this when the connection at the TerryF Cox back of the computer came loose. Ez Scott B Check the AHW forum AFA Gary J Terry has a good suggestion. Hopefully it'll be something simple like that. AFA Gary J GA, Sandy AFL SandyB I just remembered I had that happen on my BBS when AFL SandyB the plug was loose in the plug strip--and filenames AFL SandyB were altered. AFA Gary J The electrical plug? Strange. AFL SandyB Yup AFA Gary J Ok. Let's move on to Ez Scott's question. GA Scott Ez Scott B Does ANYBODY still develop in BASIC??? Ez Scott B GA AFA Gary J Some people do, Scott. AFL Dyfet Yes, Scott AFL Dyfet There are some projects that are nice to do in basic. Ez Scott B Nice is not the intent AFL Dyfet Well, fast, then. Sometimes there is nothing faster than getting out a quick basic program, AFL Dyfet though I can also be pretty fast with C :) Ez Scott B I need to learn C AFA Gary J Very true, Dave. AFA Gary J I used a small BASIC program to help me develop a IIGS application the other AFA Gary J night :) AFA Gary J (Applesoft) Ez Scott B applesoft here too Ez Scott B but basic is weak as far as speed calculations Ez Scott B for use in Grafix Ez Scott B C is faster Ez Scott B Mach. Lang. is fastest AFA Gary J Yes. That's where assembly comes in (nicely). Ez Scott B But assembly is hard to learn AFA Gary J AppleSoft and assembly are made for each other :) Ez Scott B i guess so AFA Gary J Not when you are forced (or driven) to learn it, for the sheer need. Ez Scott B Well, I picked up some Assembly for use in my games.... AFA Gary J I found it very easy to learn assembly as an extention to Applesoft. AFA Gary J (Because Applesoft wouldn't perform like I wanted it to) Ez Scott B but I've not yet mastered it. Ez Scott B I.E. sound subroutines, shape tables.... AFA Gary J Exactly, Scott. Ez Scott B ok Ez Scott B well...thanks Ez Scott B bye AFA Gary J Bye, Scott. Ok, Sandy, did you have a question? AFL SandyB Got a question that might not belong here--can I put a ROM 03 on a motherboard built for an 01? AFA Gary J No AFL SandyB Why? AFL SandyB I take it it's more than a socket's a socket? AFA Gary J 2 chips, I think (instead of one) AFA Gary J Yes. AFL SandyB A dealer told a friend that he would go ahead and AFA Gary J It takes a whole motherboard swap. AFL SandyB put the latest ROM in the motherboard that's being AFL SandyB switched. AFL SandyB Friend's motherboard 01 bad. Getting swap for another motherboard 01 but dealer said they'd AFL SandyB put in 03. AFA Gary J Well, if he's getting a whole new motherboard, then maybe that's possible AFA Gary J Ok, Scott, you're up for your question. GA AFL Scott Speaking of C, has anyone seen my distance question in Misc developement? AFA Gary J I have. (But don't know the answer). AFA Gary J Interesting question, though. AFL Scott Well, I just wanted to add that it's a problem specific to machines with less than 8 bit color. It AFL Scott doesn't occur as frequently with 8 bit color. Additonally, it's frequency increases as color AFL Scott resolution decreases. AFA Gary J Interesting, Scott. You've tried it on > 4 bit color machines, eh? AFL Scott Yup. I use that algorithm everyday at work. It works very nearly flawlessly. When it doesn't work AFL Scott exactly right, dithering takes care of the error. AFL Scott It seems that a solution might be to use a weighting value on both the target color and the AFL Scott palette entry to make sure that no two colors can ever be the same distance wise. I've tried it AFL Scott but it really slows things down.